With these three measures of Marcellus, Gaetano / Elisa and Gianfranco, the preparation of the blog wants to seek some further reflection on the book by Henry, presented in POST Free from civilization (Whenever possible) . Only for convenience we have avoided the form of "dialogue-hit-and-answer" which would have required a lot of exchange of mail among five people before the establishment of a text "shared". So in this post we have collected some frequently asked reflections "and in a later post we will collect the responses of Henry.
INTERVENTION OF MARCELLO
Dear Henry, I can only
I applaud the work you have done with "Free from civilization." I agree with you on the development of degenerative this civilization and I will not even repeat in brief Heads analysis produced by you, because verification of the consequences we are experiencing is immediate and daily.
I remain, however, some doubts.The first one I was born from your point of almost constant to civilization, and then from your assume that the alternative to this civilization is the non-civilization, because this is the only one. It 's definitely one for what is given us to live now, but it' s only possible ?
I do not think that this doubt is purely speculative because it keeps well with the other two. It 'almost indisputable fact that man farmer rappresenti una degenerazione rispetto all’uomo raccoglitore-cacciatore, e anche qui non sto a ripetere le implicazioni culturali, politiche, economiche, e prima ancora psicologiche ed emotive (in una parola, sull’intera vita umana ) che si possono leggere nella tua peraltro godibilissima trattazione. Non sono però sicuro che il movimento degenerativo:
- sia iniziato con l’agricoltura;
- se è iniziato con l’agricoltura, perché è iniziato.
from step 2.
A P.. 39 a Bushman, one of our co-evo non-civilized, questioned replied: "Why should we dedicate ourselves to grow as long as there are so many nuts mongongo on earth?".
I agree with the Bushman, who in the hypothetical turning point from non-civilization to civilization could be alternatives in these situations:
a) have become more stupid, and do all the work to get things could get for free, and trigger the degenerative process of sheer stupidity or error;
b) have become more evil, and make the effort to create surplus, so rich, quindi avere più potere, quindi poter sfruttare e dominare gli altri e poi tutto il resto, per lucida malafede;
c) essere quello di sempre ma con pochissime noci di mongongo.
Trovo che (a) non sia realistica. Possibile all’interno della variabilità individuale, ma praticamente impossibile a livello collettivo a meno di ipotizzare una involuzione dell’intelligenza umana. Anche se personalmente non ho difficoltà a mettere in dubbio i dogmi darwiniani ed accettare anche momenti involutivi, credo che l’uomo, come elemento naturale, agisca complessivamente all’interno del sistema di minima spesa di tutta la natura.
(b) ha quasi lo stesso problema di (a): because all that is evolving towards a greater evil? To tell the truth would not be out another plane of existence for humanity: a plan of the soul or the collective mind, related but not identical nor deductible by the plan of evolution (Darwinian or not, it does not matter) of the body, namely ' soul or mind are not products of a body part (brain?), but its existence and the body is the only interface to the physical world. In this case, agriculture would be (and then this civilization) to be the effect caused by the human condition (degenerate than the optimum non-civilized) and not vice versa.
remains (c). Se le noci di mongongo che crescono spontaneamente non bastano più per tutti, le alternative alla morte per fame sarebbero state la competizione e il conflitto per assicurarsi le noci a scapito di altri o iniziare a coltivarle, innescando comunque un movimento degenerativo.
Inoltre rimane sempre in piedi la domanda, “perché se la natura è in armonia, poi la rompe e non produce più noci a sufficienza”?
Trovo quindi che il “problema agricoltura-innesco incivilimento mortale” fotografi una situazione già mutata, cioè siamo già al sintomo (uno dei primi) e non alla causa della malattia di questa civiltà.
Credo che tutta la matter can be summed up with "man the hunter-gatherer is in harmony with nature, then it no longer is." So
or changed man, and if it was in harmony with nature, have changed for reasons "extra-natural", that is along a different plane of existence, as previously mentioned.
O has changed the nature, meaning that there were many more mongongo nuts, and then man adapts. Just as the baby naturally in harmony with the world, then being in a world not just beautiful, does what he can: neurotic. And so the vicious circle.
At this point, dear Henry, I agree with you in considering this civilization as well as possible and inevitable is just a fantasy that we need an alibi.
Inevitable indeed, but only then, and now editable.
Just like our neuroses and fears unfounded (adults) are a response (almost automatic, child) is no longer appropriate to the problem (today) is no longer a danger.
today as I am what I am good thanks to what's wrong (or once did) there was in my life, I see a path nell'incivilimento, soffertissimo, self-consciousness of humanity.
I do not welcome that, but I think that some "compassion" for our children we can help humanity to avoid the pitfalls of the "rebellion" or escape in the adoration of the myth of the "noble savage" to search for the inner motivations for a real change in real life.
But we remain on the balance problem that breaks.
balance, understood in the sense of life, can not be understood as the absence of disturbances, because this corresponds to death. Nor is the presence of two perturbations of opposite sign which cancel, because this is stasis, that is still death.
That life moves in a succession of disruption of a different, sometimes overlapping (ie, acting at the same time) but never a zero-sum. In every moment life is always biased in some ways, then maybe a correction occurs, but the process is not achieved equality stops. Even in electrochemical cells, never attained the full balance, otherwise the end of the vital functions: if the difference in electrical potential between the inside and outside of the cell membrane will cancel the nutrients and toxins can not enter be expelled. This is true both in the microscopic world and in the macroscopic, if all the masses in gravitational equilibrium of the universe were the Earth would stop to turn around the Sun and 'stress of life because life is stress, but without advancing any theory that sees stress as "pepper necessary" for an "exciting and challenging life," because in these cases ( such a hectic work) usually it is a justification for rationalizing a series of avoidable stress (there are no jobs frantic) that for some deeper reason you do not want to face (see POST Competition, pride, capitalism and social dementia ). The idea of \u200b\u200bbalance is also the idea of \u200b\u200bjustice, namely equality, but the sum is not zero in finite time ever, that is exactly what we experience in our lifetime, or in the historical course of a century or a millennium. On a very long time we see more easily compensating movements such as landslides, economic crises and so on. and this suggests that equality is possible only in the eternally long time. This, in fact, is the idea of \u200b\u200bkarma, which includes actions, reactions, compensations that end only when the individual employees (male) ol'individualità collective (humanity) out of the cycle of rebirth (of finite lives), and live Timeless in the plane (where time does not flow, ie infinitely long). This
longed to reiterate that the situation of balance where everything works "as expected" is probably a mirage in the future and a myth in the past.
And once again, not to justify the current situation and resign themselves to it. The amplitude of the "degeneration" is reached very great, but I see something in this sad but physiological.
To clarify the physiology I mean, I try to take a step to the side of the idea of \u200b\u200bequilibrium, ie to that of evolution, keeping the key point that the sequence of perturbations of opposite sign suggests that the phenomenon is the basis of the oscillation and that life is the sum of multiple movements oscillating.
From the book, but I could not understand it clearly, I think your idea of \u200b\u200bevolution is linear . Even if you believe that there is a decline with the progress of civilization, it is considered that there is a movement from primitive to modern.
That is, before the primary there were other men (more) primitive, or, according to Darwin, even other animals (still) non-human (which are actually the most harmonious for excellence), and then there is a transition from the most to the least happy, linearly.
Unfortunately the signals of archeology, a little 'less standard, but "not too alternative" are other tipo.
Sia nelle caratteristiche fisiche degli umani, che del loro progresso culturale e tecnico.
Un esempio per tutti:
Sono state trovate diverse mappe sicuramente autentiche del ‘400 e inizio ‘500, probabilmente copiate da altri originali più antichi, che riportano le coste di terre allora ufficialmente ancora “non scoperte”, con un dettaglio e una tecnica incompatibili con le conoscenze dell’epoca. Per un primo studio delle fonti, consiglio la lettura del libro di G. Hancock, Civiltà sommerse (Ed. Corbaccio, 2002), di cui riporto un brano (pag. 9):
OTTAVA SQUADRIGLIA DI RICOGNIZIONE TECNICA (COMANDO STRATEGIC AIR) AIR FORCE OF THE UNITED STATES
Westover Air Force Base Massachusetts
July 6, 1960 SUBJECT: Admiral Piri Reis map of the world II
A: Professor Charles H. Hapgood,
Keene College,
Keene, New Hampshire Dear Professor Hapgood
,
your request for evaluation of certain unusual features of the world map of Piri Reis in 1513 by that body, has been granted.
The hypothesis that the lower part of the paper is the Princess Martha Coast of Queen Maud Land and the Antarctic Peninsula is reasonable. We believe it is the interpretation paper most logical and probably the correct one.
II geographical detail shown in the bottom of the card in an extraordinary way agrees with the seismic profile carried out on the surface of the ice cover by Swedish-British Antarctic Expedition of 1949.
In an attempt to find this explanation should remember the fundamental geological and historical facts: 1
The Piri Reis map, which is an authentic document, and in no way an insult, was built in Constantinople in the year 1513 AD
2 It highlights the west coast of Africa, the eastern coast of South America and the northern coast of Antarctica.
3 Piri Reis could not have acquired the necessary information on this region from contemporary explorers because Antarctica was discovered only in 1818, more than three hundred years after he designed the paper.
4 The coast of Queen Maud Land cleared of ice that appears in the paper is a colossal puzzle because the geological records confirm that the latest date would have been recorded and mapped in terms of a thaw is the 4000 BC
5 I can not find the date first where it was possible to achieve such a feat, but apparently the coast of the Earth Queen Maud remained in stable condition to thaw for at least nine thousand years before the advance of ice cover to swallow completely.
6 The story does not know any civilization that had the ability or the need to detect the coastline in the period in question, namely between 13,000 and 4000 BC
In other words, the true enigma of this paper of 1513. not so much the fact that it includes a continent only discovered in 1818, representing part of the coastline of that continent in terms of thaw, which came to an end six thousand years ago and have not been confirmed in more.
How can you explain this? Piri Reis gives careful attention to the response in a series of notes written by himself on the map itself. Informs us that he was not testing for the original map and drawings. On the contrary he admits that his role was only to compiler and
"This indicates that the coastline had been detected before it was covered by ice caps. At present the pall of thick ice in that region is about one mile.
absolutely do not know how we can reconcile the data on the card in question with the presumed level of geographical knowledge in 1513.
HAROLD Z.
Ohlmeyer Lt. Colonel, U.S. Air Force, Commander
Despite the measured tone, the letter of Ohlmeyer is a bomb. If the Queen Maud Land was taken before it was covered by ice, the work must be original map back to ancient times. When, exactly?
The scientific tradition has it that the Antarctic ice cover, in its present size and shape, has millions of years. A closer examination, this review reveals a serious flaw, so serious that we need not assume that the map drawn by Admiral Piri Reis reproducing the Queen Maud Land as it appeared millions of years ago. The best recent documentation indicates that the Earth's Regina Maud e le vicine regioni mostrate sulla carta attraversarono un lungo periodo senza ghiacci che forse si concluse definitivamente solo circa seimila anni fa. Questa documentazione, su cui torneremo nel prossimo capitolo, ci esonera dal gravoso compito di spiegare chi (o che cosa) fosse in possesso della tecnologia necessaria per realizzare un accurato rilevamento geografico dell'Antartico nell'anno, poniamo, duemilioni di anni fa, molto tempo prima delle origini della nostra stessa specie. Ma poiché la rappresentazione cartografica è un'attività complessa e civilizzata, ci troviamo d'altro canto obbligati a spiegare come sia stato possibile realizzare un'impresa simile anche solo seimila anni fa, una data che precede di molto the dawn of the first true civilizations recognized by historians.>>
Since the '400 is not known that there was no technology to detect the coasts in that way, especially on a continent that still did not know existed, There are two solutions:
- the presence of a culture parallel to that of '400 of which we know nothing and who has developed a technology poderosissima, of which there is nothing left;
- before our civilization there existed a ' other with a capacity comparable to our today, of which there is nothing left.
The (1) is not very likely, but no matter. These observations lead us to consider both the possibility of alternative extinct civilization (and it should work as a warning and encouragement to undertake the changes in ours) is that the first-tives are not really the first.
Fritjof Capra, in a book (The turning point , Feltrinelli, 2003) that you put yourself in your bibliography, in keeping with its holistic view, argues (and not just personal intuition, as now you begin to understand even in the more "official") that the lineage is not linear. Capra insists on non-linear, with moments of rise and fall, virtually every aspect of the universe in the long, long, short and medium term.
Some aspects are then resumed declining in slope, and so on: that the speaker, but less explicitly, oscillating line.
not get to talk about cycles, which are instead the Vedas: our age would be "turning point" from the Kali-yuga (fall, degenerative) in Satia-yuga (the rise, regenerating). The last yuga eons of time and are repeated. Within each yuga there are other shorter period of oscillating motion regarding other aspects of creation, and other variations in other characteristics "shorter" and so on grafting.
Quibble if they do not care hours are the same as looping in a "deja vu" or not, but to establish that finding a beginning is very difficult if not impossible. Could use effectively, so find the perpetrator guilty of civilization that makes us suffer, at least comforts us a bit '.
The Vedic civilization (not the Hindu which you refer, but the sages of ancient Rishi) seems to have been in equilibrium, even in harmony with the subtle energies of the universe, then it is no longer was (and is become Hindus).
There is talk of a science of life, Ayurveda (And all the technology that today we would call medical preparations for the diagnosis and treatment), which is not cured diseases, but the preservation of health. There is talk of a
Agriculture (eccoci!) Vriksha Ayurveda, where the plants were cultivated by reciting a mantra, because the mental connection between man and nature was crucial.
spoken but also one of aviation, airships, of terrible explosions, destruction (some sources see http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm References #%% 20from% 20Ancient 20Literature ).
I realize that I'm also getting into the minefield of the new-age fantasy, but the suggestion dell’umanità che ciclicamente perde e ritrova armonia è in sè armonica. La perdita dell’equilibrio è intrinseca all’equilibrio dinamico, cioè è vitale.
Non voglio buttarla sul fatalismo, anche se l’idea di karma (che mi affascina e su cui mi propongo di ritornare) offre la possibilità di coniugare l’inevitabilità della degenerazione e della distruzione dell’universo con la libertà di generare e costruire del singolo individuo.
Caro Enrico, arrivo al dunque: gli approfondimenti possibili del tuo lavoro mi sembrano i seguenti:
a) nella NOSTRA storia evolutiva resta da chiarire perché si è passati da una situazione a "happy balance" to a situation of "involution unhappy" began with the use of a particular type of farming,
b) we can put this particular involution (that of the last 10,000 years) in a broader context, it probably IS it is only an appendage of a larger story, it is not to be anchored to dichotomies (such as "good times-bad times") or inconclusive rebellions (such as "do not vote if you do not have the Aboriginal").
said that it remains useful to understand the plot of the many plans of this civilization and remains confirmed that PV is preferable to oil, which reduced fuel consumption is better than photovoltaic, etc.. and that a de-growth and de- civilization are not synonymous with barbarism again but on the contrary, recovery of humanity.
INTERVENTION Gaeta and ELISA
Dear Henry,
try to do some reflection on the personal use you can do a book like yours, that has been designed and written in an intelligent and heartfelt. We do not propose to argue, as you are careful exposition and very balanced in its conclusions, but we would like to highlight two possible "lines" of thought that may develop from tue pagine: una a nostro avviso ragionevole e costruttiva ed una inconcludente, pseudo-progressista e snob. Nessun invito quindi a “correggerti” ma a puntualizzare e “prevenire” eventuali usi “impropri” del tuo lavoro.
La “nostra” civiltà si è sviluppata in un certo modo ed è arrivata a questo punto. Possiamo rimpiangere l’arco e le frecce, ma siamo qui a diecimila anni dall’opzione “agricoltura sì/agricoltura no” e siamo alle prese con ben altre opzioni. La lettura di pagine che dimostrano in modo convincente che non abbiamo davvero guadagnato un tubo ad avere più medicine e un fisico indebolito o ad avere aeroplani e non avere una meta, ci riporta comunque alle scelte di ogni giorno da farsi con il nostro fisico rattrappito e con la pubblicità delle Agenzie Viaggi.
Il pericolo di un uso poco saggio del tuo contributo è di tradurlo in “ideologia”, cioè in uno schema di idee sballate anche se più “umane” di quelle “padane” o consumiste. Il rischio è, cioè, quello di avviare una lotta personale “per la primitivizzazione”. Per intenderci, non vediamo niente di male nel fare delle vacanze in campagna anziché a New York o nell’andare in bici anziché in auto o nel gestire un “orto sinergico” senza usare zappa e concime. PURCHE’ queste cose siano intese come giochi (nel senso bello del termine), e non come “impegno”. La società non cambia affatto se io ho un orto rivoluzionario. Cambia di più se tutti fanno la raccolta differenziata e soprattutto se si riduce sensibilmente il traffico aereo (che costituisce una delle maggiori fonti di inquinamento del pianeta e di cui non parla nessuno). E’ più raccomandabile un altro uso del libro: un uso “critico” e mirato a comprendere meglio l’intreccio fra economia e cultura nel nostro mondo, accettando che comunque questo è il nostro mondo e che è nostro compito cambiarlo nei limiti del possibile.
A noi non piacciono i “rivoluzionari dello spirito” troppo schizzinosi verso policy to do something concrete. "Those who say ...-Whittaker-revolution part by the newspaper ... and smiling down at sunset, burning incensini, to recite poems collected in gift-box and feel very" spiritual "and" free of compromises. " The result, in these cases is that the fascists continue their work and the opposition (or whatever it is) has even fewer votes. We already have the "inner revolutionary" who think only of their fucking kundalini and "external" last minute that they send everyone to fuck off as left and right "are equal" (false idea, because right e sinistra sono cose diverse anche se i partiti di destra e di sinistra possono essersi avvicinati: cfr. il POST Destra e sinistra come categorie politiche ed etiche ). Il mondo, in questa condizione attuale, non migliorerebbe sicuramente con altri “rivoluzionari primitivisti” che con snobismo disimpegnato e con lo sguardo di chi la sa lunga pensano in pratica ai fatti loro (cosa legittima) credendo però di attuare una nuova modalità di “impegno”.
L’impegno vero è quello che produce risultati per chi ne ha più bisogno e che produce risultati, magari minimi, da oggi. Ora, trattare con rispetto i bambini non equivale a fare politica, ma almeno produce risultati significativi (un’intera vita migliore per loro e migliori intrecci fra le loro vite e altre vite), ma girare in bicicletta è solo un passatempo e NON un impegno ecologico, almeno finché non cambia il tipo di produzione e di commercializzazione delle auto nel paese e nel pianeta. Tu hai il merito di non istigare a questo vizio mentale del “grande rifiuto”, ma le tue affermazioni sul “non accontentarsi del meno peggio” meriterebbero qualche approfondimento. Se concorderai con la nostra pignola puntualizzazione ne saremo felici e se dissentirai, temo che resteremo della nostra idea.
INTERVENTO DI GIANFRANCO
Caro Enrico,
penso di non be the best person for further information on the origin of civilization or of that civilization. You certainly underlines the interweaving between the economy (in the sense of all the modes of production and not just the latest) and culture (in the broadest sense and not only "ideology" of the term) is enlightening, as well as disturbing. Above all, the references do people remained in the margins of this crazy line of development and then remain anchored to the life of the ancient hunter-gatherers are intriguing. And solicit questions about why ten thousand years ago we were fools to give up such an earthly paradise. The various theories that you mentioned in response to my last application does not seem convincing and I regret not having a tucked-based theory of geological or archaeological data.
The only ground on which I have reasonable certainty is the subjective side of our shared insanity. On this side, it is clear that when we do act for fear of destructive choices and feel in particular, fear of pain. The idea that "if we do not check to fall into temptation and sin" is a nonsense of the priests, because when we hurt we're actually controlling. Our destructiveness "original" does not exist, pace of the popes, of Freud and many others. In practice we do things destructive because we continue to get away from ourselves, as children do when they are alone in having to manage the pain. When
with our attitudes refuse a good social character we have already rejected ourselves to "save us" (ie differentiated) by deep emotions and "uncomfortable." The rigid person "who does not ever ask" continues to avoid the pain (an ancient and devastating) to request and be disqualified. Then maybe you construct a mythology of literary or philosophical misanthropy, but in fact, continues to prevent the childhood experiences that were unmanageable. On the contrary, the person "in need" che chiede favori a tutti, anche quando potrebbe arrangiarsi, continua ad evitare l’esperienza di chiedere cose importanti (sul piano affettivo) nel modo in cui nell’infanzia decise di sostituire quelle richieste con stupidi capricci più facilmente accettati perché di tipo “pratico”.
Come ho cercato di chiarire nel POST Evoluzione biologica e irrazionalità , la nostra infanzia è troppo lunga per non includere esperienze dolorose e per non essere contrassegnata da forme inadeguate di accudimento da parte dei genitori. In pratica, la lupa più squinternata, nei pochi mesi in cui deve accudire i piccoli lo fa dignitosamente, mentre la femmina human most responsible over the years inevitably errors with your puppy of a man. So I tend to think that in ancient times civilization arose from greed, irrationality, which is rooted in fear of emotional contact. In other words I think that humans abandoned their harmony with nature gradually, that is becoming increasingly rigid, detached and irrational ("armor") and thus becoming "sensitive" to the allure of power, control and dominion. Probably, if up to a certain point, our ancestors have lived basically good, with certain limitations, to a certain point in time have experienced more limitations and have translated in practice these social-organizational and internal changes. Inevitably, they then suffered the effects of this and rationalized the destruction of their daily life and nature in which they were immersed.
today who does not want to keep in touch with painful situations are stoned with his career or with alcohol. Before the invention of the careers and spirits, someone has probably decided to stoned a field plowing and planting their tents in a definitive way. The idea is not easily provable, but it seems more reasonable than those of scholars who have listed.
said that, whatever the reasons for the initial activity, we must accept that the vessels are already broken and we need to work on the pieces to do what is possible today.
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